Ever since the 2009 Hall of Fame class was announced this week, there has been much discussion by Jazz fans and others regarding John Stockton and where he ranks all-time among point guards. On NBA.com, Andre’ Snellings shared his thoughts on the subject:
But is he really? Because there is a flip side to the coin…Stockton was only twice in his 19 seasons voted onto the All NBA 1st team, and both of those came in the early ‘90s after Magic had retired but before Gary Payton and Jason Kidd came of age. Stockton never came within shouting distance of winning an MVP, checking in at where he doesn’t even crack the top-10 among point guards despite the fact that MVP shares are cumulative and Stockton played many more seasons than most of the guys ahead of him on the list.
There absolutely is no way that you can base John Stockton’s career on MVP voting, in fact, looking at it just a little bit shows how completely flawed the MVP vote is. Consider one of Stockton’s better statistical years when he averaged 17.2 points, 14.2 assists, 2.9 steals and shot 50.7% in the 1990-91 season yet finished 12th in MVP voting. As a comparison, Steve Nash had weaker numbers across the board during his first MVP season of 2004-05 averaging 15.5 points, 11.5 assists, 1.0 steals while shooting 50.2%.
Or, consider the 1996-97 and 1997-98 seasons when the Utah Jazz finished with the best record in the Western Conference (best record in NBA in 1997-98) and earned trips to the NBA finals to play Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls. Stockton somehow finished 15th (1996-97) and 13th (1997-98) in MVP voting in those seasons. This goes to show you that you cannot take MVP Award Share worth a grain of salt. Stockton did not play in a big market, did not make many commercials, did not lobby for himself, was not a highlight reel, etc. and therefore his MVP status always suffered despite his play on the court where it should matter.
And then, there is the qualitative argument: if Stockton is really the best point guard in history, and Karl Malone was arguably the best power forward in history when he played, then how on earth could two “greatest evers” at their positions play together on the same team for 18 years and not win at least one title? I know there were outstanding teams during that period, but if you put two position GOATS together for almost two decades and they really are the best, it’s almost inconceivable that they don’t win at least once by accident.
This has been talked about over and over again so I will not talk about it much here. Obviously having no championships is a ding to the resume of John Stockton but for most that watched him play on a regular basis, this is a footnote.
Stockton was very good with almost inhuman consistency…he never missed the playoffs in 19 seasons, he played all 82 games in 17 of 19 seasons, and he was always one of the better players in the league. But he was never the best, neither himself as an individual nor his team. So if you want to base your “best” on career accomplishments that may never be duplicated, then Stockton may be the one for you. But if you tell me to pick one point guard to lead my team to the Promised Land in any one season, give me Magic or Oscar or Isiah or even Chris Paul and I feel more confident than I do if you give me Stockton. And to me, that means that Stockton can’t be my greatest PG of all-time. What do you think?
The fact that Chris Paul was even mentioned in this article makes my stomach turn a little bit and shows how under-appreciated John Stockton really was. I don’t really think that this argument of greatest point guard of all-time should be made on who you would take for one-season but John Stockton has to be there at the top, along with Magic Johnson. The basis of Snellings’ argument is that Stockton’s longevity is what allowed him to rack of such gaudy assist and steal numbers. But Stockton’s individual seasons were amazing too, he has seven of the nine all-time 1,000 assist seasons including the top four. John Stockton also has 4 of the all-time top 15 steals seasons, by comparison Michael Jordan has three, and Gary “the Glove” Payton has zero.
So who would I want to point-guard my team for one season. That really comes down to who the other players on the team are to decide whether I take Magic Johnson or John Stockton.
One thing has become clear to me though, John Stockton may be the most under-rated, under-appreciated all-time great in the modern era.
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April 10th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
+1,000
He takes a hit because he wasn’t flashy.
April 11th, 2009 at 2:43 am
great post.
espn had one writer post a few weeks ago that chris paul is greater than magic johnson…give me a break with the hype.
despite what snellings wants his readers to believe, longevity IS one aspect of greatness. if someone averages 20&10 but sits out 40 games per year for their career, they simply can’t be mentioned in this kind of conversation.
April 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll debate the points that you make on your blog, if you come back to my blog and debate my point on there. On my blog I suggested that Stockton wasn’t the best in any one season, so come back and give your reasoning on there for why he was. And on this blog, I’ll come into what is sure to be heavily against me, and debate your points with you. Deal?
Let me start by saying that even in my post I acknowledge Stockton’s dominance in assists and steals, as well as his insane efficiency as a scorer. And due to the brevity of a blog post, I didn’t go into depth on things like his clutch nature and how he often seemed like the one running the Jazz ship and not Malone.
All of that said, I never felt like he was the best player in the league. I watched Magic, Larry, Michael, Isiah, Olajuwon, Robinson, and many others that played during Stockton’s run and felt like they were better players. The reason that I chose to look at MVP votes and NBA first team selections is that was a way to quickly look at what the consensus was among the NBA community while Stockton was playing.
I definitely understand the flaws in MVP voting/All NBA teams, but comparing Stockton’s season to Nash’s 15 seasons later isn’t really relevant. The point of looking at the votes is to compare a player to their peers. So if Stockton only made 1st team All NBA twice in 19 seasons, that means that for the majority of his career voters considered point guards like Magic, Isiah, and even non-legends like Kevin Johnson or Mark Price to be better in individual seasons that Stockton.
Now, I’d still put Stockton high on any All–Time list. But there were plenty of times while watching that I DID feel like Magic was the best player in the NBA. I never felt like Isiah was the best player in the NBA, but I did feel he was better than Stockton. I’m not sure about Paul yet…he’s still young and has a lot to prove, but in his short career he’s impressed me.
So anyway, that’s my opinion. I look forward to continuing this discussion, hopefully on both sites.
April 12th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Andre-
I would love to dive into a debate surrounding Stockton and the greatest point guards of all-time. However, with the end of the season upon us and the playoffs just around the corner, I don’t have time to devote to that debate at the moment (I am in fact falling behind with my regular posts at the moment as Jazzspin.com is unfortunately not my full-time job). But it could certainly be a great off-season discussion when/if the Jazz are eliminated, which is looking more and more like it is going to happen sooner rather than later. I certainly see where you are coming from with many of your points and it would be fun to dissect the issue much further.